Questions for the FList

[ladymercury_10]

 Dear Flist,

I keep hearing about Buffy.  A great many people I know both offline and online enjoy it.  I have steered away from it because I'm not really interested in vampires and the occult elements (spells, etc.) are off-putting to me.  What makes Buffy a good/bad show in your opinion?  Anything you have to offer would be much appreciated. :)

Also, do any of you watch Stargate?  Any series, I suppose.  I know Jewel Staite has been on it, and I do love sci fi.  Would you recommend it?  If so, why and which series?

Comments

[karate0kat.livejournal.com]

I watched the last two seasons of SG1 for Claudia Black and loved them, but I could never get into the earlier seasons. I liked Atlantis quite a bit. Universe is meh.

As for Buffy, I love it for the characters. I love it for the strong women it gave me. I love it for the humor and wit. I love the later seasons less because I feel all of these declined after Whedon gave up direct control in order to run other projects at the same time, but they are all still worth watching, IMO. The second and third seasons are best, IMO. Seasons 1 and 5 are pretty good. Season 4 was the dreaded high school to college transition, and they did it better than some shows, but far from the best. Seasons 6 and 7 are the seasons I tend to only rewatch specific episodes.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Cool! Thanks for the tips. :)

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

I like Buffy a lot, personally. It can be a bit uneven, but at its best, it's some damned fine TV. Mostly for reasons already mentioned: great characters and lots of wit. It also played around with a lot of genre and TV conventions in ways that ways that I enjoyed, and had a fair amount of dramatic and thematic heft to it, as well. I would definitely say don't let the vampires put you off, but I will add that "occult elements" are a pretty big part of the premise; it's that kind of a fantasy show. Whether they're likely to be genuinely problematic depends a lot on why you find them off-putting, I guess.

As for Stargate, I've only watched SG-1. Which can also be pretty uneven, and isn't really the kind of stand-out television that Buffy IMO is, but it can be a lot of fun. It's got decent characters and an excellent sense of humor, and it does a remarkably good job of taking tired old SF TV conventions and making them entertaining again, largely by virtue of accepting and embracing the fact that the audience is already pretty genre-savvy.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That helps a lot.

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

I've only seen SG-1 and I love it. It's not one of my big favorites but it has a very special place in my heart. I'd recommend checking it out but I'm not sure how well it has aged.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Neat! Thanks for the advice!

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

I only just finished watching through SG1 last year, and it didn't feel dated to me at all.

[owlboy]

i hated sci-fi until I watched Buffy. it has it's crap episodes like any show, but when it's great, it's really, really great.
The first season isn't so good - it's a bit of a horror pastiche at first - but once it start's coming into it's own, it's awesome.

As others have said - the characters. Buffy has some of my favourite characters of all time [Anya and Giles<3]. It's impossible not to adore them, even the ones who start out as horrible bitches like Cordelia, because they're all done so well.

It's also hilarious, genuinely frightening, very emotional, and very clever. I love the contrast between normal highschool teenage life and apocalyptic scenarios. I love that Joss takes the mickey out of his own concept in some episodes and the result is hilarious [such as in "The Zeppo"]

Ah, I grew up on this show. I could talk about it forever, i just love it.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Wow, thanks! That helps a bunch.

[elisi]

Ah, I grew up on this show. I could talk about it forever, i just love it.
Hello you - I knew you were awesome, but not this awesome! We should do tea some day and talk Buffy. ♥ (I have talked about it forever, almost literally... No really.)

[clocketpatch]

I didn't see any Buffy until about two years ago. I'd made a point of steering clear of it when it was actually on TV for reasons that don't make much sense in retrospect, but as soon as I started watching it I realized that I'd been missing out. It's good, it's funny, and it's surprisingly deep sometimes.

I haven't seen season 6 or 7 yet (and given what I've heard about those seasons this is maybe a good thing?) I do want to see the famous musical episode at some point though... mostly because Anthony Steward Head is an awesome singer and him in musical anything is a recipe for pure awesome.

Er, that was a bit rambling, but the answer is yes, give it a try. As for Star Gate, I haven't seen much of it and found most of it a bit boring TBH but I've got plenty of friends who love it so I'd give it a try too. :D

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the input!

[eponymous-rose.livejournal.com]

Buffy-wise, I haven't watched the show since I was in high school and it was still on the air, but I really did adore it - it's what got me into TV, period (before that, I never watched). The writing is solid, many of the characters are fantastically well done, and it's far better than any mid-season replacement with a name containing the words "Vampire Slayer" has any right to be. It's got some really standout moments, but I remember feeling like it lost a lot of its oomph after season three, which may possibly just be me, because a lot of people seem to like the later seasons. I don't think I ever managed more than one or two episodes of season six. I wouldn't mind going back to it and seeing how it's held up - not that it's an old show, but TV has evolved hugely since then, and Buffy kind of paved the way for a lot of quirky, geeky cult series.

Stargate-wise, I will definitely admit that I like SG-1 very much as popcorn sci-fi - some of the earlier episodes are pretty dire, but it really comes into its own once it stops taking itself so seriously and actually starts making fun of sci-fi clichés. I remember enjoying bits and pieces of Atlantis (though it took me months to motivate myself to finish the pilot), but I never really got around to finishing the show and felt no particular desire to go back to it. I haven't heard much good about Universe, so I haven't watched it at all.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Hmm, good thoughts. Thanks!

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

I love Buffy for the snappy and funny dialogue, but also the emotionally heartfelt moments. For me and a lot of people, it transcended the whole vampire/witches/etc. because it was all very rooted in the characters and "normal" world too. It was really aware of all the monster tropes and poked fun at them a lot. The mythical stuff was really secondary to the characters and relationships of the "Scooby Gang".

Like other people said, some seasons are better than others. They all have some missteps and great moments, but most people criticize 4 (transition year! not only did she go to college, but half the characters left or spun off onto "Angel"), 6 (the "dark" year when Buffy and Willow got super self-destructive), and 7 (just kind of a mess) the most. But I will say I appreciate the idea of S7 and the series finale. I like that the show ended on a feminist message even if the execution was sloppy.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Sounds fun! Thanks.

[eve11]

I never watched Buffy until it was off the air; I mainlined 18 episodes of season 2 in about 17 hours straight, and basically did the same thing (watch entire season in a weekend) for the next three or four seasons. My boyfriend really likes it too. It really tells some great stories and I love the way it uses metaphor. It's dramatic, funny, scary, silly, heroic and, as Craig Ferguson would tell you, it is much like Doctor Who in that it is probably agnostic at best in terms of religion but it does tell about the "triumph of intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism." Yeah there's magic and spells and stuff, but doing bad by magic still has consequences, if that makes sense. Occult is used to drive character-based stories; it's like the sonic screwdriver of the show.

I personally think that the last two seasons told some very good stories; they were just different in tone from the first five seasons. They do better when you can mainline them all at once and don't have to wait for what comes next, in my opinion.

Stargate is fun. The early seasons have a kind of Star Trek feel to them... monster of the week, very self-contained, but there definitely more humor in Stargate than in Trek. Plus Stargate fanfic has a good tradition of gen adventure stories. There is a ton of really good stuff out there. I watched Atlantis for a bit but never got into it as much. My co-worker watches Universe and he really likes it because he says it runs a lot closer to hard sci-fi than space opera.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

That's really helpful. Thanks!

[kathy-williams.livejournal.com]

I managed to watch Buffy in the space of two months, when my friend lent me the DVDs. I enjoyed the show because of the characters, and generally I don't enjoy vampires mysefl either. I'd recommend at least checking out a few episodes, the first season wasn't that fantastic though. My favourite seasons were 4 and 5.

As far as Stargate goes, thus far I've seen pretty much all of SG-1, bit and pieces of Atlantis and one episode of Universe. Universe looks like rubbish, doesn't really have the same feel as the other two. I'm hoping to get the boxed set of Atlantis for Christmas, since I can't seem to find anywhere to hire it from, but the few episodes I have seen have got me very excited, as have the crossover fanfics I've read. SG-1 is one of my favourite shows, I can't quite explain why, but other people seem to have done a good job of explaining it, so all I'll add is that I think you'll probably enjoy it considering how much you like Doctor Who.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That helps.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Haven't read comments, just chiming in:

Buffy: the writing is excellent, it's a mix of genres including action, humor, horror, and high school drama, and there are some fantastic characters. If the occult bothers you a LOT, you might want to steer clear, but demons on Buffy are much more like DW monsters than bibilical demons, etc. You probably should watch a selected few eps to see if it pings your radar or not.

Stargate: WATCH IT WATCH IT NOW. Don't both with SG:Universe or SG:Atlantis, at least not to start with. Grab season one of the original, Stargate SG-1, and watch the pilot. If you like the pilot, you have from 5 to 10 more seasons of awesome to indulge in. :D If you'd like more detailed recs, please ask me! I love this show like pie. Popcorn action, philosophical questions, eye candy, friendships, religion (well, occasionally), raised eyebrows of irony, and jokes that are clearly the product of writers who know their scifi and revel in prodding the genre. Not genre-bending, but with a knowing tongue in cheek on occasion.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That's very helpful.

[hobbit-hunter.livejournal.com]

I've never been a fan of the Buffy show. I loved the movie, but I hated how SRS BUSINESS the TV show was. Besides, the chick that played Buffy wasn't pretty in my opinion.

SG-1 WATCHER o/

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Stargate SG-1

[kerravonsen]

I think the best way to approach Stargate is as if it's two different shows, a different show for each version of the SG-1 team. The first team is Jack O'Neill (Jack), Daniel Jackson (Daniel), Samantha Carter (Carter) and Teal'c. The second team... isn't my team, so I won't speak of them.

For me, the chief attractions of Stargate are (a) Jack and Daniel friendship (including snark and banter) (b) the teamy goodness of the whole team working together (c) the supporting characters like General Hammond and Dr. Janet Fraiser. This means that the part of the show I like best is the first five seasons; after that it isn't the show I love.

The Sci-Fi elements of the show are an odd mix of intelligent and stupid, often in the same episode.

Some quotes:

Hammond: "You didn't like Daniel Jackson, did you?"
O'Neill: "Daniel was a scientist. He sneezed a lot. Basically he was a geek, Sir."
Samuels: "So you didn't have a lot of time for him."
O'Neill: "I didn't say that. He also saved my life and found the way home for my men and me. A little thing like that kinda makes a person grow on you, if you know what I mean."


O'Neill, as Daniel runs off to meet the Goa'uld monks: "Oh for crying out loud."
Daniel, to the monks: "Hi."
O'Neill: "The man has not changed."
Daniel: "We just came through the Stargate...Chaapa'ai?"
Monk: "Chaapa'ai!" He and the rest fall to their knees.
Daniel: "No, please don't do that..."
O'Neill: "Friends of yours?"
Daniel, seeing O'Neill and Carter with their guns raised: "Unless we want to give ourselves a bad reputation, I think we should avoid shooting the first people we meet on a new planet."


O'Neill, about a planet Hammond is describing: "Let me guess. That's where we're going."
Hammond: "Very good, Colonel."
O'Neill: "Thank you, Sir. I pride myself on my deductive reasoning skills."
Hammond: "In one hour you will go through the Gate to the planet represented by these symbols. It has been designated P3X 797."
Daniel: "Couldn't we call this planet something that's a little easier to remember?"
Carter: "Ah, it's based on a binary code the computer uses for extrapolation."
O'Neill: "Which makes it MUCH easier to remember."


O'Neill: "Teal'c! Doc! Open the door! Teal'c!"
Teal'c: "Colonel O'Neill?"
O'Neill: "Lucy! I'm home!"
Teal'c: "I am not Lucy."
O'Neill: "I know that. It was a reference to an old T...never mind. Open the door."
Teal'c: "I will summon the doctor."
O'Neill: "No, no, come on, I'm fine. I'm back to being myself. Just open up."
Teal'c: "I cannot be certain you are back to being yourself. You referred to me as 'Lucy.'"
O'Neill: "Oh, for crying out loud, will you just open the door?"

Re: Stargate SG-1

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Haha, I like the last one.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[kerravonsen]

Yes, I can see why the vampires and occult stuff in Buffy would be off-putting. However... it isn't "realistic" occult stuff. It's so obviously fantasy that that's how I treated it.

As for the vampires, as a rule I don't like vampires, and I especially find it annoying when vampires are written as sparkly and not evil. The vampires in Buffy are evil soulless bloodsuckers, and there is much angst - especially early on - in how a vampire is no longer the person they were when they were alive. There are two exceptions to this: Angel and Spike. But there are in-show explanations as to why these two vampires are different.

As for violence... it's more cartoon violence, I guess. The SFX folks spend a lot of time making the monsters very ugly (there's more than just vampires; mind you, when the vampires "vamp out" they look pretty ugly too).

The attraction of the show is the characters, the snark and the quips. Like Doctor Who, it doesn't take itself seriously, and it can whip between silly and dark, though the silliness tends to veer towards black comedy rather than fluffiness. Some episodes manage to be very creepy.

The interrelations between the characters can reach a soap opera level, which can be a good thing at one level, and a bad thing when it gets over the top. But it's a good ensemble cast, even when old characters leave and new characters arrive.

Coincidentally, like with Stargate, I consider the first five seasons of Buffy to be the best, and I don't care for the rest of it. Season Five ended with a bang, and they should have left it at that.

Some quotes:

Giles: The influx of the undead, the... supernatural occurrences, it's been building for years. There's a reason why you're here and a reason why it's now!
Buffy: Because now is the time my mom moved here.
Giles: Something's coming, something, something, something is - is going to happen here. Soon!
Buffy: Gee, can you vague that up for me?


Xander: This is just too much. I mean, yesterday my life's like, 'Uh-oh, pop quiz.' Today it's 'Rain of Toads'.
Willow: I know. And everyone else thinks it's just a normal day.
Xander: Nobody knows. It's like we've got this big secret.
Willow: We do. That's what a secret is, when you know something other guys don't.


Buffy: Well, I gotta look on the bright side. Maybe I can still get kicked out of school.
Xander: Oh, yeah, that's a plan. Cause lots of schools aren't on Hellmouths.
Willow: Maybe you could blow something up. They're really strict about that.
Buffy: I was thinking of a more subtle approach, ya know, like excessive not studying.
Giles: [to himself] The Earth is doomed.


Giles: This computer invasion that Willow's performing on the coroner's office... One assumes it is entirely legal?
Buffy: Of course.
Willow: Entirely.
Giles: Right. Wasn't here. Didn't see it. Couldn't have stopped you.


Willow: Buffy has a really important date.
Buffy: Owen!
Giles: All right, I-I'll just jump in my time machine, go back to the twelfth century and ask the vampires to postpone their ancient prophecy for a few days while you take in dinner and a show.
Buffy: Okay, at this point you're abusing sarcasm.

Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks, that's very helpful, and the quotes are good fun. :)

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

I like Buffy because the writing is superb. People argue about the last two seasons - they're some people's favorites and other people hate them - but the first five seasons when Joss was heavily involved were very, very good. A lot of the occult stuff is pretty tongue-in-cheek, and so are the vampire tropes. Can I ask why it's off-putting? As someone who is really a fantasy fan, rather than a scifi fan, at heart, this is a little puzzling to me.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I was raised very anti-magic--I wasn't allowed to read Harry Potter, for example--for religious reasons. So I'm a bit more flexible than I used to be, but serious occult stuff still makes me uncomfortable.

[sacred-lullaby.livejournal.com]

I happen to love Buffy (though I'm more partial towards Angel, the spinoff) mostly because it was so different from other shows of its time. Joss Whedon has a real knack for dialogue and story telling, and the acting is superb. I will admit that seasons 4 and 5 kind of lag - the transition from high school to college is always tricky, but it really is worth it.

And for us Who fana, there's also JAMES MARSTERS in his best role to date.

I've never seen Stargate, but I've been thinking about it. Almost entirely because of Jamie Bamber. Or is he in BSG?

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Jamie Bamber is in BSG. Isn't he adorable?

[elisi]

Oh Buffy. ♥ The following might not be entirely coherent, because Buffy is my show. It is the show that made me a fangirl, that taught me what obsession is, the show that made me find fandom and introduced me to fic and meta and the whole madness that comes with online fandom. Lots of other people have said good things which are all very true: The demons are metaphors (except that over time some of them escape from their story and become real and three-dimensional!), there is endless quipiness and banter, the writing is good, often excellent, (and sometimes, but rarely, terrible,) the characters are brilliant, the occult elements work like the science does on DW etc. Essentially it's a show about growing up, like RTD's Who is about what it means to be human, and Moffat's is about stories - that's what the metaphors are all there to support.

But I'm rambling, because this is all surface and my icon says it best. Buffy is just a girl. And she's wonderful, like Amy or Martha f.ex, except she's not the sidekick, she's the hero. She is the one with the fate of the world in her hands. And she's just a young girl. (She's 16 when the show starts.) And I love her so, so much and watching her grow up absolutely breaks my heart, even as she makes me proud, because she fights so hard to hold onto her humanity when everything around her is out to destroy her. Every other hero I come across gets measured against her.

Actually, this is only half the truth. I watch for Buffy and Spike. For every facet of their infinitely complex and extraordinary relationship. I say 'relationship' but it's not that simple. (It's a bit like trying to explain Doctor/River. Except 6 years worth of story rather than six episodes. OK, 5 years. But six sounded better, and it's technically true.)

Also, I am one of these later season fans that others have talked about. I like the early years, very much, but it's the later years that grabbed me. What can I say - I like to see my heroes brought as low as they can be, because it shows what they're made of more clearly than anything else. But there is a break in tone (a bit like between RTD's era and Moffat's), so you'll have to work that out for yourself. But you should definitely watch it! :)

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thank you! That's very helpful. :)

[kerravonsen]

One of the interesting things I noticed when writing my comments on the two shows is that, while one might objectively declare the writing in Buffy to be better, or the plotting, or whatever, it is Stargate that gives me the warm feeling in the cockles of my heart, it is Stargate that I want to hug and give a cup of cocoa to. Take that as you will.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Awww :)

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

I've been pondering how to respond to this, because: when I first watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it upset me a lot. I first watched it in the winter of 2005-2006, and...there was a time in late winter 2006 when I wished I'd never seen it. I was deeply disturbed by it.

But then...gradually my complicated relationship with the Buffyverse turned into one of the best things in my life...I am in a better place now than I've ever been in my adult life before, and my relationship with the Buffyverse has been a big part of that.

So I'm cautious about telling other people they should watch...especially people with OCD...but...for me, at least, it turned out to be a wonderful thing indeed.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thank you for all the thought you put into your post! May I ask what made you wish you'd not watched Buffy, and what made you glad you kept going?

Also, I've enjoyed chatting with you on LJ...would you be interested in talking further, perhaps on instant messenger or email?